How To Use ABA (Applied Behaviour Analysis) To Change Challenging Student Behaviour With Sasha Long

How To Use ABA (Applied Behaviour Analysis) To Change Challenging Student Behaviour With Sasha Long

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Summary

Did you know there†s an area of science focussed on helping people engage in positive behaviour change? It†s called ABA (Applied Behaviour Analysis) and follows simple, tested principles for helping pupils achieve behaviour success.

In today†s episode, ABA and autism expert Sasha Long explains what ABA is, why finding the function of a pupil†s behaviour is so importantâ€Ã AND how to replace negative classroom behaviours with positive ones (even with students who are resistant to change).

Important links:

Listen to Sasha's other podcasts here: The Autism Helper Podcast Archives

Visit The Autism Helper website here: The Autism Helper

Join our Inner Circle membership programme: https://beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/inner_circle.php

Download other FREE behaviour resources for use in school: https://beaconschoolsupport.co.uk/resources.php

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Show notes / transcription

Sasha Long  0:00  

I think a big kind of take home point that you can start tomorrow. And it is really thinking about how you react versus how you respond. Because when we think of things from a function based perspective and why a behaviour is happening, it's going to be a response. It's thought out, it's purposeful. It thinks about the why versus a reaction. A reaction is filled with emotion. It's from the god, it's not thinking about long term consequences. You just do it right. You're a teacher, you see a kid running in the hall, and you're like, you don't run, and you don't think about anything else. You're just like, I'm a teacher, and no one will ever run in front of me. So I will yell at them. But you just want your day to always end with more responses than reactions. And I think that's something you can start like right away tomorrow, like how can I just take a second and think about what I'm doing instead of just reacting?


Simon Currigan  0:44  

Hello, hello, my name is Simon Currigan. And welcome to school behaviour secrets. Peter Drucker once said, There is nothing so useless as doing efficiently that which should not be done at all. If only you shared this nugget of wisdom with us back in episode one, he could have saved us and you dear listener, an awful lot of time and frustration.


Emma Shackleton  1:43  

That's the sound of my co host, Emma


Simon Currigan  1:46  

Shackleton. Hi there, Emma.


Emma Shackleton  1:47  

Hi, Simon


Simon Currigan  1:48  

am I've got a burning question that I simply have to ask you go on. Is there an activity or an area of your life that you'd like to get better at? And what's holding you back?


Emma Shackleton  1:59  

Okay, well, there are quite a few things I'd like to get better at. But the first one that springs to mind is learning to type faster on a keyboard. I feel like if I could master this skill, it would really save me an awful lot of time, like typing up notes and that kind of thing for work. What's holding me back laziness just seems like such a boring thing to have to sit down and work on my typing skills, so I'm never really motivated to do it. I feel like she'll be forever doomed to be a three finger typer what's the feeble connection to today's episode, though?


Simon Currigan  2:35  

Well, today, we're lucky to have Sasha long from the autism helper podcast on the show. And as well as being an expert in autism. Sasha is also an expert in a BA or applied behaviour analysis, which is the science of understanding behaviour change. And in this episode, she explains how to use simple ABA principles to help change the challenging behaviour of students in school.


Emma Shackleton  2:59  

That sounds really fascinating. But before we get to the interview, I've got a quick request to make. We rely a lot on word of mouth to reach our audience. So if you're finding these podcasts useful, open your podcast app, and please tap the Share button that will enable you to share this episode with three friends or colleagues or more who you think would benefit from all of the free behaviour strategies and advice in the podcast. That way you can have a bigger impact having a positive influence on classrooms and students beyond your own. And now here's Simon's interview with Sasha long.


Simon Currigan  3:37  

Wanted to welcome Sasha along to the show. Sasha is the founder and president of the autism helper, a Board Certified behavioural analysis and former special education teacher. She works full time as a consultant, writer and behaviour analyst, as well as writing the autism helper blog and hosting the autism helper podcast. Sasha is an adjunct professor in the School of Applied behaviour analysis at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, and travels internationally as a speaker and consultant, providing training and advice in the world of autism. Sasha Welcome to the show.


Sasha Long  4:11  

Thanks for having me, Simon,


Simon Currigan  4:12  

I'd like to say straight away that I love your podcast, the autism helper each week, it is so full of practical strategies and ideas and advice. And if you're listening to this podcast, then I recommend you completely go after listening to this and subscribe to Sasha's podcast because I know you're going to love what she shares over on the autism helper to Well,


Sasha Long  4:31  

thank you so much. It's a fun way to share information on a podcast as you know.


Simon Currigan  4:34  

So I'd like to start the interview by asking you about your expertise with applied behaviour analysis. Can you tell us a little bit about what ABA is? And what its purposes?


Sasha Long  4:45  

Yeah, sure. So ABA is the science of human behaviour and there are a lot of misconceptions about what ABA is and isn't. And I really like that simple definition. It's the science of human behaviour because it's really about for me why we do what we do? You know, ABA isn't necessarily autism science, a special ed science and the way I typically teach about ABA, and the way I think about ABA is even in my own life with my family, with my kids with my friends, it's why we continue with certain behaviours. And where we stopped doing behaviours, we really look at how the environment impacts what we do. And it's important to kind of note that your environment is the stuff and the people. So your family members are part of your environment. The other students in your classroom are part of their environment, you as a teacher are part of your students environment. And I became a behaviour analyst while I was a teacher, which I think was like a lucky situation, because it was a lot of lightbulb moments of like, oh, okay, this is why these behaviours are happening. And these are things I can do now that I have this increased knowledge of this science to help support my learners that maybe are struggling, what kind


Simon Currigan  5:53  

of insights is that given you that perhaps you didn't have before, when you're sort of looking at those things, what kind of like light bulbs went off?


Sasha Long  5:59  

The big thing for me is reinforcement. So reinforcement is anything that comes after a behaviour that increases the chance of that behaviour happening again, in the future. I catch myself all the time, reinforcing my kids inappropriate behaviours, right? They like whine, they whine, I'm like, Oh, God, fine here. I'll get it for you. And we all do that. In that moment. You're like, oh, my gosh, I've reinforced whining now next time, they want extra catch up, or they want another show. They're gonna whine. And you see, kind of from this outside perspective, how behaviours build how behaviours, Snowball, and how things can escalate to so I think, you know, the biggest takeaway that I share, and that I think about quite frequently is reinforcement. Because it, it becomes everything, whether it's to building new behaviours, or to decreasing behaviours, you don't want to see as many of


Simon Currigan  6:46  

so when we see a child struggling with their emotions or behaviour in class, it can be tempting to think, Okay, I know what that problem is, and jump straight in to the strategies and putting interventions in place. But in ABA analysts first invest time thinking about what the function of the child's behaviour is. So can you explain what that means? What we mean by function, and how we might assess what that function is? Yeah,


Sasha Long  7:10  

so the function is really the why of a behaviour. So you know, our behaviours happen for a reason, we're generally getting something out of it. And I think the best way to think about function is that we are either engaging in behaviours that get us access to something, or help us escape or avoid something. So to get us access to something that could be getting us access to attention to an item to an activity to sensory input, right? I drink my coffee, because I get some sensory input from that coffee, right? That's a behaviour that gets me access to something. And then we also engage in behaviours that are to get away or to escape from something, we escape social demands. We do that all the time, right? You see someone you don't want to talk to you put your sunglasses on, you make a phone call, you turn in the corner, right? We escape activities we don't want to do we escape chores we escape certain people, we escape overwhelming sensory situation. So there's a lot that kind of falls into that category. So that's like an easy way to think of like, what is this getting him access to? Or what is this getting us away from or avoiding? So when you look at a challenging behaviour from an ABA perspective, you do kind of spend that time thinking about the why. Because when you jump in, you know, we don't always just want to trust our opinion, we have these like quick assumptions we make about kids, we are human, you know, you have kind of ideas about students in your head already. Before even sometimes they come to you, right? If you've like heard about a kid in the school, like, Oh, you're getting Johnny. So you have these preconceived notions that aren't always necessarily right. And then in the moment, when you see a child engaged in some type of struggle, you're like, Okay, well, that could be this that could be this. And sometimes we jump to like the easiest thing, like, oh, well, he just doesn't care. He's being lazy. He doesn't want to do this. And a lot of those kind of lazy, quick assumptions, just lead us to this data. It's like if you decide, well, he just doesn't care. So what are you going to do about it? Like you just walk away, you put your hands up? Like, no, we want to think about really what's going on. And you know, the biggest thing that we want to figure out is what is the missing skill here. And that's what thinking about the function puts you on the right track for really, most negative behaviours are demonstrating a lack of a certain skill, you know, the struggle with sustained attention, a struggle with emotional control, a struggle with fret flexibility. And if we can figure out what's going on the why, then we can teach another way to get access to that same why it's all about teaching that missing skill and giving those positive pro social behaviours to replace what's going on. But you got to get access to the same why it's what they originally wanted.


Simon Currigan  9:42  

So if you're a teacher listening to this, and you've got a child in your classroom and you feel they've given up, they don't care, and you'll listen to this and thinking, Okay, so there's something else going on there. What are the first steps you take? How do you start to dig into that and work out what that why is


Sasha Long  9:56  

data? Not the funny answer? Sorry, everyone's like, Oh, she's got a quick Here's the thing, though it's take some data, because I really want data to inform my decisions, not just my opinion, you know, positive behaviour change comes from a series of decisions a teacher has to make you make decisions about how you set up your classroom, what expectations you give, what feedback you give, what directions you give. And all of that shouldn't just be based on your opinion, you want to base all those decisions on data as well. So I suggest taking really simple because you know, we don't have extra time always ABC data. So what ABC data looks at is the antecedent, what happens before a behaviour and the consequences, what happened after a behaviour. So the method that I like for ABC data is more of a checklist style ABC data sheet, because in a busy classroom, there was not time to take lots of anecdotal notes and write down exactly what happened. So what I really like is more of a checklist. So having the common antecedents what commonly happens before a behaviour, the common behaviours, and then the common consequences. So when a behaviour happens, you go to your datasheet, you check off, okay, there was the child was told, No, there was a transition, these were the behaviours and then after he was redirected, so check, check, check. And you do that over a period of time. And I get asked quite a bit like how much ABC data should I take? And the standard answer, like as much as you need, there's no, you know, magical amount. If behaviours are really high frequency, you're gonna get a lot of data really quickly. Like, if you're having, you know, over 10 behaviours in a day, you might just be able to take data for a few days and get you know enough information, you basically want to take enough data to see patterns, what is frequently happening before what is frequently happening after, and then that will give you some clues of like, okay, maybe this is an attention seeking behaviour, and what are some ways I can teach that replacement behaviour for this child to get access to attention? Or maybe this is to escape some demands? And what are some ways I can teach this child to ask for a break appropriately? So it's going to inform your decision a little bit better, because what we see on the surface, you know, isn't always enough that it's inaccurate. It's just hard to see when we're part of it. And I think data lets you take that kind of bird's eye view.


Simon Currigan  12:03  

Just to clarify, when you're talking about consequences here on the ABC chart, consequence is being kept in play time having a detention, you mean something quite specific?


Sasha Long  12:11  

Yes, that's a really good point. So consequence has like a negative innuendo, right? You think of like your parents being like, there will be consequences. Consequences, just anything that happens after the behaviour, this could be planned or unplanned. A consequence could be that a teacher brings a kid to a timeout or a break area, the consequence could be that peers laugh, a consequence could be that nothing changed. No one looked at him, no one did anything. He just kept living his life. So it's anything that happens after the behaviour, not necessarily negative, not necessarily teacher driven, just what is changing, if anything in the environment after that behaviour happens,


Simon Currigan  12:45  

okay to bring this to sort of kids who are neurodiverse sometimes in school, we might see a student with autism presenting with behaviours that look like aggression, they might be angry, that's not the full story. There's more going on with that behaviour. When you're working with children with autism, what kind of factors do you find are commonly underlying those behaviours? When you really dig into it,


Sasha Long  13:07  

I think the biggest thing is a missing skill. And it's typically something around communication, right? Like, what is driving someone to aggression, like, I kind of try to think about that a lot too, like aggression is effortful. It's a lot it's draining. And if you're kind of left with no other way to get what you want, but aggression, and that's the last thing that works for you like that was feel really hard a lot of the time. And, you know, it's always important to also think about, and this is kind of outside the realm of ABA. But I think points to like how we should always be a collaborative team, when we approach these things is really working with other professionals, other clinicians, and really working with care parents and caregivers, and ruling out any medical concerns as well. You know, when we see especially like high magnitude, aggression, things like head banging, or hand biting things that are more extreme, we always always want to loop in a physician that we're ensuring that there are no underlying medical causes, because that could definitely be something that we don't pick up on and no amount of interventions is going to help someone that's having migraines are having a tooth ache or something like that. So ruling out any medical concerns. And I think when we're seeing aggression or things that are higher magnitude, you know, a loping running extreme disruption or property destruction, things like that. We want to really learn from those situations and try to get the kid back to a place of being happy being calm, feeling safe, because it's important to think about that learning is not going to happen when that child is at that heightened state. You know, this is not none of us like we're not going to learn when we're like when we're super mad. You know, when you're so angry, and maybe your spouse or a co worker is like let's talk about it. What the hell have you you talk about it like, you're like I'm not ready. And that's kind of when our kids are in that heightened state. Sometimes we try to come in and like here's a social story. Here's this and like, it's like Just like this isn't the time when learning is going to happen, you know, decreasing negative behaviours is actually going to happen away from the negative behaviours, it's going to be those proactive interventions that we added, it's going to be those replacement behaviours that we teach our child to do instead. So in those moments when those things happen, it's okay, I think to just step back and like remove demands, give the child what they want, and learn from that, like, what got them to a level 11 out of 10. You know, and, and then to kind of think about with your data, like, look at what's getting them to that state, you know, and especially with extreme behaviours, you might not want to take so much ABC data, because you might want to get going with your intervention real quick, right? You might want to get enough for you got an idea. And you start teaching that replacement behaviour really quickly. So we can see that aggression decrease because you know, the most important thing in every classroom all around the world. And no matter the setting, no matter the grade is safety is keeping those kids safe. And aggression can make that really challenging for an educator because it feels like it's things that are happening outside of your control. And especially if you teach older students things can become real risky really quickly.


Simon Currigan  16:15  

Just like to take a pause for a moment and say that if you're finding this podcast useful, then you're going to love what we've got waiting for you in our inner circle programme. The inner circle is your one stop shop for all things behaviour. It's a comprehensive platform filled with videos, resources and behaviour inspiration to get you unstuck with classroom behaviour. We've got training resources on de escalation, supporting kids with anxiety support strategies for conditions like autism, ADHD, and PDA. practical ways of helping pupils deal with strong emotions, assertive behaviour management techniques for managing the whole classroom setting out to a classroom environment for success resetting behaviour with tricky classes, and more, our online videos walk you through practical solutions, step by step, just like Netflix, you can turn an inner circle subscription on or off whenever you need to, with no minimum contract Plus, you can now get your first seven days of inner circle for just one pound. Get the behaviour answers. And you've been looking forward today with inner circle visit to beaconschoolsupport.co.uk. UK and click on the inner circle picture near the top of the homepage for more information. So we thought objectively about our child's needs and the functions and causes of their behaviour. So let's imagine we've got a pupil who's got issues around transition and change who finds it hard to cope with the demands of moving from one classroom task to the next what would an ABA approach be to matching the right support or interventional strategy to the behaviour and function? How would we know which direction to go? Once we've identified that missing skill? And you've talked about the teaching and the coaching of how to replace that skill? What do we actually pick them the right intervention to help them learn that skill? Yeah,


Sasha Long  18:03  

that's a good question. And so that's why it's so important to figure out the function because you got to figure out what you're gonna get them access to. Right. So if it's in transition, is it avoiding the transition altogether? Is it staying at the first part of the transition? Is it something about the adult interaction, so I think some data because when you're taking data, you're also observing, you know, you're also noticing kind of those things. So okay, if the transition is really to stay in that first spot remain, maybe you're transitioning from a preferred activity to a non preferred activity, which no one wants to do, right? So we're transitioning from a preferred activity to an uncovered activity and the resistance to the transition is I want to stay with my preferred activity. So that's what we want to give them access to right is staying with the preferred activity. And when we talk about this and start to think about, okay, the replacement behaviour is going to be then what would give them access to the same thing as I want to stay playing computer, and then you're like, Okay, well, but eventually, they have to go to work, right? They can't just stay and do computer all day. And I think the missing piece often is getting buy in for the replacement behaviour. So let's say your child has great verbal skills, and you want to teach them to say, hey, like, I want more computer time, right? We're transitioning from computer to group work, and instead of having a challenging behaviour, aggression, something that you know, is impeding learning, instead of that we want them to say, Can I have more computer time? And people are like, great, he knows how to do that. He doesn't do it. And well, yeah, he doesn't do that. Because that doesn't work. When he asks, Can I have more computer time and you just like, oh, that script I was like, Well, I'll tell you what does work get you scratching right? So of course you're gonna go to what works. So I think we need this period where you gotta get the buy in when I teach this kind of in depth I call this phase one and phase two because people get nervous about the first part of this and phase one is all the good all the time it because you gotta get the buy in that hey, when you ask, Can I have more computer I'm like, Yeah, buddy, you can you play more computer, you do it. We don't need group time today and and then be like, great, great. Let's like work computer. Awesome. And so let's say people are like, Oh my gosh, what if he asked for computer 70 times? And to me, I'm like, Yes, ask for computer 70 times because that is 70 opportunities to get buy in for that child to realise, hey, when I use this replacement behaviour asking with verbal language, can I have more computer this works, this works just as well as aggression and getting me what I want. We're not staying there forever. That's why it's called a phase right phase one, once you get by, and once aggression decreases, then you're going to move to phase two. Phase two is delay and denial. Sometimes you gotta wait. Sometimes we say no. And you fade that in slowly, and it is a process. But if we look at the end result, I'd much rather have like the month that it takes to get there where we actually are being like, hey, nobody, not today, no more computer day, we got to go do group versus that month, we're half the time you were in a meltdown. Anyways, you weren't getting to that group work, you weren't getting to the academic learning, when you were spending half your day in meltdown mode anyways. So take that time to get that buy in to that replacement behaviour, show them that this really works, I got you. Because that's how learning happens. You know, all learning happens through repetition and reinforcement through practice, you don't teach addition one day and you're like, Okay, you got it, right. We're gone to subtraction tomorrow. So it's the same thing with these behaviours they need time to learn and to have that buy in, and that trust that this works. And then we can pull back and be like, Okay, well, you know, I'll give you that insight in a minute, or we're going to do this first, then we'll come back. And then I think you can kind of add that in later. But we sometimes miss that by in peace.


Simon Currigan  21:38  

I think if you're a teacher, and you've got a child who's kicking off with having huge outbursts, actually having the problem of having slightly too much computer time is one I'd swap every day of the week. Yes. So what about if you put a strategy in place, and we try and get the buy in? And it's not working? And we're using like ABC data? How long do we give it? Because some strategies do take a little bit of time for the kids to hook into them? How long do we wait, before we say the strategy isn't working, and it's dead, and we need to switch intervention,


Sasha Long  22:07  

I think with this whole idea of getting buy in and the replacement behaviour, you're going to know right away, like either you got the right function, or you didn't, right. Because if you really figured out what that child really wants, and you're giving it to them, they're going to take it. But if you're offering someone that something they don't really care about, then yeah, you're gonna have that like, well, I don't really need to use this brake card or this, you know, attention strategy, or whatever. So I think you're going to know, I mean, the student is going to really direct you on if you're in the right path or not. And, and keep that in mind. That's why we take that kind of thorough ABC data to see like, you know, what is this really getting at. And, you know, when we think about functions and behaviours, sometimes people will teach it and teach it this way as well, but that their sensory behaviours and attention and escape and tangible and we think about it in these nice, neat categories. What oftentimes, behaviours occur for multiple reasons, like, I go on Instagram, for two reasons, I get attention on Instagram, when I post and I escaped things I should be doing by scrolling. So you know, being on my phone isn't a single function. It's a multifunction behaviour. And that's what a lot of behaviours are. So you may have just not honed into one part of the why of the behaviour. So I think if it's not working, you kind of go back to your ABC data, you go back to observing. And I think these are great times to then ask for colleagues input. Because again, when you're part of it, you don't always see like, maybe you have a peer coworker down the hall, like, hey, come observe for 15 minutes. And she's like, Oh, my God, you are like totally playing into this, or, you know, he totally wants this and you might not see it, because you're you're part of it. And I


Simon Currigan  23:38  

guess it shows that this is an iterative process. Science is all about having a theory, collecting data, trying something out if it doesn't work, adapting and changing, and that's okay. And not taking that professionally. Like you failed in some way or Yes, absolutely.


Sasha Long  23:51  

And it's hard to not do that. Like, it's easier said than done. You know, you're like, I got it. And sometimes we're our own worst enemy. Like, we're like, Nope, this was the strategy I picked, we're gonna make this work. To me, you know, that's not a fail. Like you just still learned about that child in this situation. Like, you learn that like, Nope, that was not it, let's try something new. So it's kind of having that perspective of this is going to be a process. And, you know, especially for our older kids, like, they have really long histories of these behaviours being very successful for them. So for us to come in and be like, Oh, I'm gonna change this in a week. That's not going to happen like this is going to be a longer process. If it was easy to change, someone would have done it already.


Simon Currigan  24:30  

Sasha, we're only just scratching the surface if you're a teacher or a parent listening to this podcast. What's the first step you can take today to learn more about ABA or supporting pupils with neurodiversity, helping them achieve their full potential in school?


Sasha Long  24:44  

I think there's a lot of great ways to learn more about ABA. You know, obviously podcasts like yours and mine though a lot of people are sharing great strategies on the Internet for free on on podcasts for free which is great. And I think just starting to think like switch your mindset a little bit, you know, like what you said on this is going to be a process we're gonna have to kind of constantly reevaluate and think about what's going on. I think a big kind of take home point that you can start tomorrow. And it's it's ABA based, but it's not like directly ABA based is really thinking about how you react versus how you respond. Because when we think of things from a function based perspective, and why a behaviour is happening, it's going to be a response. It's thought out, it's purposeful. It thinks about the why versus a reaction. A reaction is filled with emotion, it's from the gut, it's not thinking about long term consequences. You just do it right. You're a teacher, you see a kid running in the hall, and you're like, you don't run, and you don't think about anything else. You're just like, I'm a teacher, and no one will ever run in front of me. So I will yell at them. And we're human, we're going to react, right? If you're a parent, you react all the time, but you just want your your day to always end with more responses than reactions. And I think that's something you can start, like right away tomorrow, like, how can I just take a second? And think about what I'm doing instead of just reacting?


Simon Currigan  26:00  

Could you tell us a little bit about the resources you have on offer at your website? And through your blog?


Sasha Long  26:04  

Yeah, so we have a tonne. You know, we I started the autism helper about 10 years ago, originally with a blog, and that my goal was to share resources and strategies with teachers, clinicians, and parents. And now we do that in a lot of ways. So we have a professional development membership. And that membership has ongoing training every month, we have new training and behaviour and staff training and academics and data. And that's a really, really great group, we have a really active activity feed where people collaborate and troubleshoot and are all kind of working together. So we have the professional development membership group. And then we have two, almost three online courses. So if you're super interested in behaviour, if this like really was like, Oh, I like this stuff, we have a six hour course on behaviour change, it's totally on demand, you can take it on your own time all broken up into like small manageable pieces. We have an online course on literacy. And then in about a month, we are launching our third course on executive functions, which really does tie into a lot of kind of the behaviour stuff as well.


Simon Currigan  27:01  

Finally, we asked this of all our guests who is the key figure that's influenced you? Or what is the key book that you've read? That's had the biggest impact on your approach to working with kids?


Sasha Long  27:11  

This is a really hard question. I have to say. This is a tricky one. So I had two really great professors in grad school that I really attribute to kind of putting my mindset in the right direction when I was becoming a behaviour analyst, especially because I was a teacher at the time. And ABA tends to have you know, connotation of being more like clinic or in home base. And I was like, but how does this work in a public school. So I had two really great professors in grad school that definitely did that. And then when I was a first year teacher, I read every book that Temple Grandin had out at the time, because I knew all of my learners in my class had a diagnosis of autism. And she was the most famous person with autism. So I read every book that approaching summer and that really did help put my mindset in the right direction for looking at my students learning styles that was a big takeaway I had right away is looking at their learning styles and identifying their kind of individual needs when it came to how they learn


Simon Currigan  28:05  

Sasha, you shared so much information, so many ideas, thank you for being on the podcast.


Sasha Long  28:09  

Thanks so much, Simon.


Emma Shackleton  28:10  

Wow, Sasha really didn't hold back. She gave us so much useful information about identifying needs, how to work out the function of Pupil behaviour, and how to find replacement behaviours that are more successful.


Simon Currigan  28:27  

I know. And I'll put direct links to the autism helper podcast and website in the show description. And you can also find her podcast by searching for the autism helping any good podcast app.


Emma Shackleton  28:37  

And if you work with kids with challenging behaviour, and you're not sure why they're acting that way, we've also got a download that can help. It's called the Sen handbook, and it will help you link behaviours that you've seen in the classroom with possible causes such as autism and ADHD.


Simon Currigan  28:56  

The idea here isn't for teachers to make a diagnosis because we're simply not qualified to do that. But if we can link classroom behaviours to possible causes quickly, it means we can get the right help and get early intervention strategies in place.


Emma Shackleton  29:11  

It's a free download, go over to our website, www dot beaconschoolsupport.co.uk. UK, click on the free resources tab near the top and we'll also put a link in the episode description. If you've


Simon Currigan  29:25  

enjoyed today's episode. Open up your podcast app now and hit the subscribe button or follow as it's called in Apple podcasts. And then as if by magic, your podcast app will download every episode as it's released so you never miss a thing. It's a bit like the series link on your TV box. And then to celebrate your technological win. Why not assemble a council of ferrets to advise you on your thorny moral problems? when life throws a dilemma at you simply pass the problem on to your furry friends who will then engage in a robust debate before offering a considered and deeply why a course of action be warned these animals have been trained by centuries of countryside customs, so their solutions will usually revolve around them being stuffed down someone's trousers potentially yours. So do plan in time for some additional brainstorming.


Emma Shackleton  30:14  

Okay, and on that note, it's time for me to wish you a brilliant week and to say we look forward to seeing you next time on school behaviour secrets. Bye for now. Bye


(This automated transcript may not be 100% accurate.)